Hello, this is Recode Media with Peter Kafka. That's me. I'm part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm not at Vox Media. Today, I'm at WNYC, about a mile north if you're following the geography. I'm here with the man described as podcasting royalty by the New York Times. Chad Abumrah. Did I get the name correct? Yes, yes. Yes, you don't sound convinced. No, say it one more time, do it one more time. Jad? Yeah, that part. Abumrod. Abumrod. Yeah. Good. But you were 80%. I'll give you 80%. I felt reasonably confident. I'll give you a B plus. In addition to have an awesome name. You are the co-host of Radio Lab. You are the executive producer of a new show. Well, it's second season. Yes. The new show called More Perfect. Indeed. Certified genius by the MacArthur Foundation. So-called. Brooklyn Dad. What else? What are the other honorifics? Just a dude. Dude. A guy who likes to, I don't make stuff make stuff composer composer yeah i do write some

music so i'm here specifically to talk to you about more perfect because that should be

launching within days of this the time you hear this podcast i know can you hear my nerves singing

you seem reasonably calm right but you but you are taking precious minutes away from finishing that to talk to me so

thank you for your time no it's my pleasure more perfect is a series made in in the style of your

radio lab podcast which i think many of you will have heard because 1.5 million people listen to

the radio lab yeah i think that's I think that's probably in the zone.

I mean, it's the numbers are always, as you probably know, the numbers are a tricky thing. A lot of people. A lot of people. A lot of people. A lot of people listen to radio lab. And More Perfect is kind of a spin-off of that. It is specifically about? It's specifically about sort of taking the radio lab approach and applying it to

stories and people that land in front of the Supreme Court. Specifically about the Supreme Court,

I think more broadly, right, it's about the legal system. Yeah, it's about the legal system. I mean,

the court itself, I've got to be honest, like, do I actually care who these justices are

at the end of the day and what they're, I mean, yeah,

I care a little bit, but really what I care about is that this is the place where, like,

the arguments go. All the stuff that we argue about lands at that court. And I like the arguments.

I like thinking really hard and hearing these amazing stories that teach me something about

the country.

You could have picked any topic to do a radio lab spinoff. Was this something that you always wanted to get to, or did you have 20 different topics and you land on the Supreme Court?

No, this was, this was, I'll tell you how it happened. Do you want the long story? You want the

short story? You're the professional podcaster. Okay. I'll see if I can split the difference. Basically, 2013, I

think, I was making radio lab with the

team, and I was getting kind of restless. I felt like we were

doing the same stories a lot. I mean, each story was different, obviously, but

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