Why China and North Korea are not as close as you think: Ma Zhao and John Delury talk history

Sinica Podcast

Kaiser Kuo

Culture, China News, Hangzhou, Chinese, International Relations, Chongqing, Beijing, Sichuan, Currentaffairs, China, Politics, Chengdu, Shanghai, Guangzhou, China Economy, News, China Politics, Business, Film, Shenzhen

4.8 • 676 Ratings

🗓️ 5 April 2018

⏱️ 64 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

The dominant narrative in the U.S. about China’s relationship with the small northeastern neighbor is relentlessly one-sided. For decades, American officials have referenced Mao Zedong’s famous (though slightly mistranslated) description that North Korea and China are as close as “lips and teeth.” This perception has continued to recent times, such as when President Donald Trump insisted in July last year that if only China put a “heavy move” on the country, it could “end this nonsense once and for all!” But could it? What is the relationship, really, between China and North Korea, and how has it changed in recent years? Has China — or any country, for that matter — ever played a decisive role in North Korea foreign policy? To answer these questions, and bring context to current tensions in Northeast Asia, we welcome Ma Zhao, an associate professor of modern Chinese history and culture at Washington University in St. Louis, and John Delury, an associate professor of Chinese studies at Yonsei University in South Korea. Ma Zhao has written Runaway Wives, Urban Crimes, and Survival Tactics in Wartime Beijing, 1937-1949, and is working on a new book called Seditious Voices in Revolutionary China, 1950 to 1953. John has become a go-to citation for media seeking commentary in the most recent busy year of North Korea news, and co-authored (with Orville Schell, who we interviewed last week) an excellent book titled Wealth and Power: China's Long March to the Twenty-first Century. Please note that this episode was recorded on March 24, a few days before the world learned that Kim Jong-un had traveled to Beijing to meet with Xi Jinping. Recommendations: Ma Zhao: Two books: A Misunderstood Friendship: Mao Zedong, Kim Il-sung, and Sino–north Korean Relations, 1949–-1976, by Zhihua Shen and Yafeng Xia, and Seditious Voices in Revolutionary China, 1950 to 1953, Ma Zhao’s own book that is “in the pipeline.” John: Deng Xiaoping’s famous interview with the Italian journalist Oriana Fallaci, possibly the most frank and interesting interview that a leader of the Communist Party of China will ever give. Of particular note: Deng’s comments that “life tenure of cadres in leading posts” was an “institutional defect.” Kaiser: The really well organized and high-caliber Association for Asian Studies annual conference. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Transcript

Click on a timestamp to play from that location

0:24.0	Hey, Cynica listeners, Kaiser here. Before we get started, just a couple of things. First, we've got a very cool event coming up for those of you who are going to be in the Boston area on the evening of Saturday, April 7th at 7 p.m. I imagine that some of you are going to be in Cambridge then for the Harvard China Forum. So while you're there, head up to MIT, where we're going to be doing a Cynica and GGV combined live show with Hans Tong and Zara Zhang from GGV Capital.
0:31.0	They are, of course, the two hosts of the GGV 996 podcast on cross-border technology, on investment, on entrepreneurship.
0:36.0	I have the pleasure of producing that show, and we are now going into crossover mode. I'm going to interview Hans about his incredibly
0:39.4	fascinating experience as a tech investor. And then Zara Hans and I are all going to speak with
0:44.3	Yasheng Huang, professor of global economics and management at the MIT Sloan School of
0:49.9	Management. He is a renowned economist, very, very smart analyst on the state of U.S. China relations
0:55.8	and other things. You've heard him on the show before, I hope. This event is going to be free
1:00.9	and is open to all the show will be at 7 p.m. on Saturday, April 7th at MIT. Space is limited
1:06.9	and the specific location will be included in the confirmation email that will send you
1:11.7	if you register, so do register, register soon, at 996.gGVC.com slash live. Again, that's 996.gvc.com
1:23.3	slash live. The other thing, this show that you're about to hear was recorded on March 24th,
1:29.0	which was before we learned of Kim Jong-un's trip to Beijing,
1:33.1	and so some of the comments that the guests might not reflect their current thinking post-Kim visit,
1:37.8	just so you know.
1:39.0	Now, on with the show.
1:49.0	Music show. Welcome to the Welcome to the Cynica podcast, a week of discussion with current affairs in China, produced in partnership with SubChina.
1:57.5	Subscribe to SubChina's free daily email newsletter, or better still sign up for our SubChina Access membership to receive discounts or free admission to events, early releases of podcasts, including this one, premium content and perhaps festival. Join our community of listeners and readers in our lively Slack channel where you can chat with our editorial team and with special
2:17.6	guests we bring on. Visit our website at subchina.com for a feast of business, political,
2:22.8	and cultural news about a nation that is reshaping the world. I'm Kajigua, coming to you today
2:27.2	from the sidelines of the Association for Asian Studies Conference in Washington, D.C.
2:32.1	Co-host, Jeremy Goldhorn, is on holiday, so it's just
2:34.9	me today. Historical memory has been a recurrent theme on this show, and in fact, just yesterday
	...

Please login to see the full transcript.

Previous episode | Next episode

Disclaimer: The podcast and artwork embedded on this page are from Kaiser Kuo, and are the property of its owner and not affiliated with or endorsed by Tapesearch.

Generated transcripts are the property of Kaiser Kuo and are distributed freely under the Fair Use doctrine. Transcripts generated by Tapesearch are not guaranteed to be accurate.