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When Things Fall Apart

Throughline

NPR

Documentary, History, Society & Culture

4.715K Ratings

🗓️ 10 April 2025

⏱️ 50 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

Climate disaster, political unrest, random violence: Western society can often feel like what the filmmaker Werner Herzog calls "a thin layer of ice on top of an ocean of chaos and darkness." But is that actually true — or the way it has to be? Today on the show, what really happens when things fall apart. This episode originally published in 2023.

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Transcript

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0:00.0

Support for NPR and the following message comes from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

0:05.4

RWJF is a national philanthropy working toward a future where health is no longer a privilege but a right.

0:12.1

Learn more at RWJF.org.

0:23.6

An old man says to his grandson, There is a fight going on inside me.

0:26.6

It's a terrible fight between two of wolves.

0:30.6

One is evil, angry, greedy, jealous, arrogant and cowardly.

0:36.6

The other is good, peaceful, loving, greedy, jealous, arrogant and cowardly.

0:42.1

The other is good, peaceful, loving, modest, generous, honest and trustworthy.

0:48.3

These two wolves are also fighting within you and inside every other person too.

0:55.1

After a moment, the boy asks, which wolf will win?

0:59.5

The Altman smiles, the one you feed.

1:12.6

What we assume in other people is what we get out of them. Our view of human nature tends to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

1:17.6

If we assume that people are fundamentally selfish, then that's how they will behave.

1:23.6

If we assume that people are fundamentally decent, then maybe we can create a very different kind of society.

1:29.7

This is Rutger Bregman.

1:31.9

I'm a Dutch historian, and I'm the author of the book, Humankind, A Hopeful History.

1:36.8

But this story doesn't start off hopeful.

1:39.9

There's a very widespread assumption that human beings are basically selfish, brutal, barbarian.

1:46.7

And this is author Rebecca Solnit.

1:50.1

Cowardly, just sort of despicable, and that civilization is some sort of structural overlay that

1:56.5

keeps us from realizing our true brutal natures, preventing us from doing what we would really do

2:02.0

if we could do anything we wanted, which would be rape, loot, pillage, maraud, steel.

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