Today's episode of the A6 and Z podcast is a special episode given recent protests around

George Floyd and well beyond and is hosted by And recent Horwitz co-founder Ben Horwitz in conversation with Shaka San Gore and Terry Brown.

Bren shares more details about our guests in the introduction that follows, and they spend the first few minutes also discussing

their backgrounds before going into a deep and nuanced discussion.

Please be aware that the conversation includes details of violence in case you have young children listening.

The first voice you'll hear after Ben's will be Shaka's, followed by Terry's.

Please also note that his sound improves after the first few minutes.

Hello, everybody.

Thank you for joining us.

I think this is one of the most important conversations

we can have right now.

Everybody is super emotional about the goings on in the world, but we've

been talking about really, really difficult, important issues at a very high surface level.

We're going to change that with this conversation.

We're going to get very deep with the experts who know what's going on at the ground level.

And my two guests today are, first of all,

Shaka's and Gore, who has touched every part

of the criminal justice system in one form or another

from the police to holding cells to solitary confinement and

understands what it is to be on that side of police.

And my other guest is Terry Brown

who spent many years as a police officer

...