It's the Brian Laris Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone.

With us now, George Packer, staff writer at the Atlantic, who writes about American politics and culture and U.S. foreign policy.

He's got a new article about the present moment in the April issue.

George Packer is the author of 10 books, including The Unwinding and Inner History of the New

America, which won the 2013 National Book Award.

His most recent book was Last Best Hope, America in Crisis and Renewal,

which came out in 2021. The press materials for that one, before we get into his new article,

provide kind of a prelude, I think, to where he probably thinks we are today. They say,

in Last Best Hope, George Packer explores four narratives that now dominate American life.

Free America, which imagines a nation of separate individuals and serves the interests of corporations

and the wealthy.

Smart America, the worldview of Silicon Valley and the professional elite.

Real America, the white Christian, of course, it's in quotes,

real America, the white Christian nationalism of the heartland, and just America, which see

citizens as members of identity groups that inflict or suffer oppression. That language describing

the premise of George Packer's book from 2021. But the balance of power among those

four groups may have suddenly changed, as we all know with this election, maybe even their

definitions changed. Jeff Bezos, I'm looking at you. Let's see what George Packer thinks. His article

is called the Trump World Order. George, thanks for coming on for this. Welcome to

WN. Welcome back to WNYC. Thank you for having me back, Brian. Can we start with those

categories from Last Best Hope? Do you think they still apply and that the white Christian

nationalist and the individualists have seized much more of the power? I think it's still a pretty good scheme.

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