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It's the Brian Larishow on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone.

With us now, George Packer, staff writer at the Atlantic, who writes about American politics and culture and U.S. foreign policy.

He's got a new article about the present moment in the April issue.

George Packer is the author of 10 books, including The Unwinding and Inner History

of the New America, which won the 2013 National Book Award.

His most recent book was Last Best Hope, America in Crisis and Renewal, which came out in 2021.

The press materials for that one, before we get into his new article, provide kind of a

prelude, I think, to where he probably thinks we are today. They say, in Last Best Hope,

George Packer explores foreign narratives that now dominate American life. Free America, which

imagines a nation of separate individuals and serves the interests of corporations and the wealthy,

smart America, the worldview of Silicon Valley and the professional elite, real America,

the white Christian, of course it's in quotes, real America, the white Christian nationalism of the heartland,

and just America, which sees citizens as members of identity groups that

inflict or suffer oppression. That language describing the premise of George Packer's book

from 2021. But the balance of power among those four groups may have suddenly changed,

as we all know with this election, maybe even their definitions changed.

Jeff Bezos, I'm looking at you. Let's see what George Packer thinks. His article is called

the Trump World Order. George, thanks for coming on for this. Welcome to WN. Welcome back to WNYC.

Thank you for having me back, Brian. Can we start with those categories from Last Best Hope? Do you think they still apply

and that the white Christian nationalist and the individualists have seized much more of the power?

I think it's still a pretty good scheme. Any scheme is simplistic and reduces things too much,

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