Welcome to the global phenomenon, Surviving the Survivor, where we bring you the best guests in all of true crime.

Here's your host, Emmy Award winning journalist Joel Waldman.

What's up, SCS Nation, and welcome to another episode of Surviving the Survivor.

It is the podcast that promises to bring you the very best guests in all of true

crime, not just a tagline. We deliver day in, day out, as you're about to see. So we are

circling back to a disturbing story, which took place in Oklahoma, involving the murder of two mothers. And those two mothers

were Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly. They disappeared in the panhandle of Oklahoma back on

March 30th of last year. While they were going to pick up Veronica Butler's two children,

she was sharing custody with a guy named Wrangler Rickman, who will come into play in this.

And she was going to get the kids for a birthday party.

They never returned.

Tiffany Adams, Granny Adams, you'll hear her name a lot.

She is these two young children's grandmother. She was, as I said, in a bitter custody dispute. She had the custody with Veronica Butler. The son, this guy, Wrangler Rickman, was in jail at the time of the murders, I believe. And Veronica Butler was only allowed supervised visits with children on Saturdays.

Now, Jillian Kelly, who is a husband as a pastor in Kansas.

She's a member of this church community in Kansas.

She went with her.

She voluntarily went with her to help out during the custody visit. She was authorized

to do so. And then the two women were discovered dead on April 13th, about 13 days after the fact,

five suspects in custody. of them appears are turning

state's witness we're going to dig into it all best guest tonight coming to us from

what I understand is a snowy Oklahoma is dr. Michaela Sarah Sarah Mosing she is the

owner of the largest Oklahoma own private investigation

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