Ethereum has been left behind in this bull market. As rivals like Solana gain ground in metrics such as speed, cost, and developer mindshare, questions are being raised about whether Ethereum’s reliance on Layer 2 solutions is the right path forward—or if it needs a more fundamental redesign. In this episode, Martin Köppelmann, co-founder of Gnosis, and Justin Drake, researcher at the Ethereum Foundation, discuss the trade-offs of native and based rollups, execution capacity, and Ethereum’s ability to maintain its dominance. They debate how Ethereum should address fragmentation across rollups, whether ETH has strayed from its ultrasound money narrative, and whether its deliberate pace of innovation could make it vulnerable in an increasingly competitive landscape. Whose ideas will lead Ethereum out of this dark forest?  Show highlights: 03:10 Why Justin is so optimistic about pre confirmations and Ethereum scaling its throughput 06:15 Whether Ethereum could reach “maintenance mode” within 5 years 08:20 Whether Ethereum can solve the problem of fragmentation 20:21 The difference between based rollups and native rollups 25:29 Why Martin believes that Ethereum is not building for developers 34:21 What real-time proving is and why it is relevant 37:46 How programmable native rollups could have different business models from Ethereum but the same security 44:51 Why most assets on L2s might not actually be secured by Ethereum 50:24 Whether Ethereum’s consensus layer might see a “clean slate” redesign with the Beam Chain 58:59 Whether Ethereum’s slow pace of change could leave it vulnerable to competition 01:06:55 How Ethereum's shift to rollups and blob data has reshaped its ultrasound money narrative by transforming the primary sources of fee burn Visit our website for breaking news, analysis, op-eds, articles to learn about crypto, and much more: unchainedcrypto.com Thank you to our sponsors! Polkadot Robinhood & Arbitrum iYield Guests: Martin Köppelmann, Co-founder and CEO of Gnosis Previous appearances on Unchained: Are Layer 2s Failing Ethereum? A New Proposal Advocates for Native L2s Given the Sanctions on Tornado Cash, Is Ethereum Censorship Resistant? Justin Drake, Researcher at the Ethereum Foundation Previous appearances on Unchained: Why MEV Will Always Be Controversial Did the Merge Make Ethereum ‘the Most Secure Blockchain in the World’? Can Bitcoin Be Secured Only by Transaction Fees? Two Researchers Sound Off Is ETH on Its Way to Becoming Ultra-Sound Money? Yes, Says Justin Drake Links Previous coverage of Unchained on Ethereum layer 2s: ETH Is Down Bad, While Layer 2s Are Ripping. Are L2s Parasitic to Ethereum? Are L2s ‘Parasitic’? Analysis Shows Ethereum Only Gets a Tiny Percentage of Fees Are Solana’s ‘Network Extensions’ Just Like Ethereum’s Layer 2s But by a Different Name? Ethereum Has Had a Banner Year in Most Areas. Except Price. Should Ethereum Layer 2s Urgently Decentralize Their Sequencers? Ethereum Scaling With L2s Has Damaged Its Tokenomics. Is It Possible to Fix It Beam Chain: Unchained: Ethereum Researcher Justin Drake Proposes Beam Chain Redesign, but Not All OGs Are Onboard Bankless: You’re Not Bullish Enough! Ethereum Roadmap & Beamchain with Justin Drake Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices