This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of W NYC Studios and the New Yorker.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, I'm David Remnick.

And I'm here with my colleague staff writer Evan Osnos,

who's been reporting for many years on Joe Biden.

We've got a big piece coming out in the New Yorker this week, a profile of Biden.

How you doing, Evan?

I'm doing okay, thanks David.

Now, Evan, I've got a little trip down memory lane for you here from almost four years ago.

You went to see Biden during the 2020 campaign.

It was the height of the pandemic and you were at his home in Delaware, masked and

socially distant. And he spoke about his motivation to run against Donald Trump.

Here's a bit from that interview.

Where Trump not running, I probably wouldn't be running.

But he's so contrary to everything that I believe about government and a sort of

of the antithesis what I think we should be doing. We have always talked about, we've

thought about, we've never lived up to it. We need the people, hold these truths to be self-evident. Every kid learns it. I think most of us thought, even

those with a lot of experience thought that that, it's always going to be that way to be. We've never met it, but we constantly move closer,

closer and closer to more inclusion.

And all of a sudden you're thinking yourself,

holy God, look at these guys, look what's happening, look what's being done, look is being said, not just by him, but by his followers and some of his, some of his elected colleagues.

Evan, that is approximately four years ago and I wonder how you remember that interview and what is the contrast between the

Biden of four years ago who was running for president who would eventually

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