You're listening to a podcast from Blogging Heads TV.

Hi, Katrina.

Hi, Bob.

How you doing?

Hanging in there.

Yeah, kind of challenging times for the world and especially, well, for people in Ukraine, but also for people have a special interest in that part of the world, which you do.

Let me introduce this. I'm Robert Wright. This is The Right Show. I'm also a publisher of Non Zero Newsletter. You are Katrina Vandenhoovel. You're the editorial director of the nation.

You're also a board member of the American Committee for U.S. Russia Accord. And we're going to

talk about Russia and Ukraine. You've had a longstanding interest in, in Russian affairs.

And, you know, I want to, first of all, let me say, I think I know enough about you to know that you and I

agree on some things. I think we both think that there are things that America could have done over the past

couple of decades to make something like this tragedy less likely.

I want to talk about that.

But I also want to say, I know speaking for myself and probably for you, we don't think that that absolves

Vladimir Putin of responsibility for what's happened. It's a clear-cut violation of international

law. I say that just because, you know, especially when there is, you know, human suffering on this

scale going on, you know, people sometimes have a low tolerance, understandably, for kind

of clinical discussions about what other people, other than Putin, who is the, in legal terms,

the criminal here, what other people might have done.

But, but, so I wanted to clarify my own view and go ahead. I have a low threshold. I mean, I do

have a low threshold. I think you take this, uh, indefensible violation of law, international law on

its own terms. And you have to respect the criminal suffering we see as a result of that.

...