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Slack.com slash THQ. This is the Friends Vista Debating Society. I'm John Batsler, Chuck

Holton and Michael Jan, colleagues, war correspondents, are on with me from Panama, from the Anton

Valley. However, we're going to reflect on what both of them discovered in Europe in

2021-2022. Now we can see it in the headlines. There is a war in Ukraine that, according

to Moscow, is a war with NATO. According to NATO, it's a war with forces of tyranny. According

to Ukraine, it's a war for survival. According to Russia, it's a war against fascists, Nazis.

There are a lot of ways to say villain. However, the larger story here is, are we coming closer

and closer to a conflagration where the two sides are not neatly arrayed against each

other? And where the first question each day is not, what is the GDP? It's more like,

have you got enough good water today and when did you last eat? Chuck, you've just come

back from Ukraine. What is your measure? You've seen several wars, Chuck. What is your measure

of the level of fear in Ukraine about what comes next? Thank you.

Well, John, you're right. I've been covering wars and disasters for two decades now. And

I've seen quite a few wars and conflicts. However, this is really the first sort of conventional

war that any of us have covered because it really hasn't been one in our lifetime. Tank

on tank battles, that sort of thing, other than the Gulf War, which was over very, very

quickly. So it's been a fascinating exercise to go and stay. I actually spent about six

...