Hey there, Stephen Dubner.

Hope you're enjoying the summer so far.

We are so much so that we are reaching into the archive this week to play you an episode we first published in the summer of 2018.

With all the extreme weather events going on this summer around the world, floods and drought-fueled wildfires especially,

we thought this one might be worth another listen. It is called two totally opposite ways

to save the planet. Hope you enjoy. At one point, I was going to call the book Toblerone for

$10 billion.

That was vetoed by my editor for some reason.

Charles C. Mann is a journalist who writes big books about the history of science.

His current interest is the modern environmental movement. The modern environmental movement, which I would argue is the only successful ideology

to emerge from the 20th century. By the middle of the 21st century, the global population is expected

to reach 10 billion. And the question is, are we going to be able to satisfy all their demands for food,

water, energy? Also, Toblerone. Because in addition to food and water and the basics, they're going to want occasional treats.

And there's one more big concern.

How are we going to deal with climate change?

Those are the big challenges.

The future of food, water, energy, and climate change.

Big challenges indeed.

How will those challenges be met?

There have been two ways that have been suggested, overarching ways

that represent, if you like, polls on a continuum, and they've been fighting with each other

for decades. That fight and those two worldviews are the subject of Charles Mann's latest book,

...