In this conversation, I talk with clinical psychologist and author Dr. Naomi Fisher about self-directed education, and why it can be such a powerful approach for neurodivergent kids, especially those with a PDA profile. Naomi shares why agency is so important in learning, how traditional school can chip away at a child’s self-worth, and what it looks like when we truly support demand-avoidant kids in ways that work for them. We also get into the challenges parents face when stepping outside the norm and why keeping the parent-child relationship at the center is key. About Dr. Naomi Fisher Dr. Naomi Fisher is a clinical psychologist who specialises in trauma, autism and alternative education. She is the author of several books including When the Naughty Step Makes Things Worse and the Teenager’s Guide to Burnout. She runs webinars for parents and more of her work can be found at www.naomifisher.co.uk Things you'll learn from this episode Why agency in learning is essential for neurodivergent children to build confidence, reduce anxiety, and stay engaged How self-directed education supports children—especially those with PDA—by minimizing pressure and honoring their natural pace Why respecting a child’s right to say no is foundational for creating a safe, trust-based learning environment How understanding the cycle of demand avoidance helps reframe “bad behavior” as a response to overwhelm, not defiance Why shifting away from rigid definitions of academic success can open the door to more authentic growth and capability How prioritizing the parent-child relationship and finding community support helps families confidently navigate less conventional paths Resources mentioned Dr. Naomi Fisher’s website Naomi Fisher on Substack A Different Way to Learn by Naomi Fisher Eliza Fricker Talks About Parenting a Child with PDA (Tilt Parenting Podcast) Eliza Fricker’s website The Family Experience of PDA by Eliza Fricker Eliza Fricker / Missing the Mark on Facebook Changing Our Minds: How Children Can Take Control of Their Own Learning by Naomi Fisher What Can We Do When School’s Not Working: An Illustrated Handbook for Professionals by Naomi Fisher Dr. Ross Greene’s Collaborative and Proactive Solutions Model Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices