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The Ezra Klein Show

Timothy Snyder on the Myths That Blinded the West to Putin’s Plans

The Ezra Klein Show

New York Times Opinion

Society & Culture, Government, News

4.611K Ratings

🗓️ 15 March 2022

⏱️ 72 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

“Americans and Europeans were guided through the new century by a tale about ‘the end of history,’ by what I will call the politics of inevitability, a sense that the future is just more of the present, that the laws of progress are known, that there are no alternatives, and therefore nothing really to be done,” writes the Yale historian Timothy Snyder in his 2018 book, “The Road to Unfreedom.” The central thesis of “The Road to Unfreedom” is that different understandings of the past, its myths, histories and memories create radically different politics. Snyder wrote the book as a way of understanding Vladimir Putin’s 2014 invasion of Crimea and the West’s response, but its argument has become only more salient in recent weeks. You can’t understand Putin’s recent invasion of Ukraine without understanding his metaphysical attachment to the era of empire, his mythological telling of Russian-Ukrainian history, and his semi-mystical construction of what constitutes the Russian nation. But Snyder’s more radical argument is that the West is also operating under its own mythological understanding of time — one that is so deeply ingrained in our collective psyche that it masquerades as common sense. And that understanding the influence of the “politics of inevitability” is essential to make sense of everything from the West’s misreading of Putin’s motivations to the internal fracturing of the European Union to the decline of liberal democracy across the globe. So that’s where we start: with the central myths at the heart of the modern Western project — and the blind spots they have created. But Snyder is also a renowned historian of European great-power conflict who has written six books entirely or partly about Ukraine. So we also discuss the chasm between the radicalness of European integration and the tedium of European governance, why Snyder thinks Putin’s invasion is fundamentally the product of a Russian identity crisis, Ukraine’s unique history as a battleground for a great-power war, how Ukrainian identity transcends ethnicity and language, why Western leaders and analysts consistently fail to decipher Putin’s intentions, the huge difference between a Russian nation premised on myth and a Ukrainian nation forged by collective action, how Ukrainian resistance could inspire a Western vision for the future and more. Mentioned: Bloodlands by Timothy Snyder “On the History Unity of Russians and Ukrainians” by Vladimir Putin Book recommendations: Nothing Is True and Everything Is Possible by Peter Pomerantsev The Origins of Totalitarianism by Hannah Arendt The Gates of Europe by Serhii Plokhy Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

Transcript

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0:00.0

I'm Mr. Klein and this is the Ezra Klein Show.

0:16.6

There is this line I've been thinking about from Timothy Snyder's book The Road to Unfreedom,

0:22.4

which is a book that when it came out people understood it's about totalitarianism or authoritarianism

0:27.8

coming to America but if you read it it is very much about Ukraine.

0:32.4

And in that book Snyder writes, there is a difference between memory, the impressions

0:37.3

we are given, and history, the connections that we work to make if we wish.

0:45.7

So Timothy Snyder is a Yale historian.

0:49.6

In recent years he became something of a hero to liberals for a series of books, particularly

0:54.0

on tyranny, 20 lessons from the 20th century, which became something like a Bible for

0:58.8

worried liberals early in the Trump era.

1:00.8

These are books about what it feels like and what you do when your society is beginning

1:07.9

to creep down or trip down the road to authoritarianism.

1:13.1

But that perspective for Snyder, those learnings, they don't come from his immersion in American

1:19.2

politics, they come from his immersion in Ukrainian politics and history.

1:24.4

Snyder's core academic subject is Ukraine.

1:27.5

He's written six books entirely or partially about Ukraine and these are very much books

1:31.6

about the way Ukraine has been repeatedly invaded and turned into a subject by surrounding

1:37.2

powers.

1:38.8

And in these books something Snyder is very alert to is a way that imagined histories

1:44.4

of Ukraine.

1:45.4

All stories are myth, feed the justifications used for these bloody invasions of Ukraine.

1:55.0

And so a topic for him that emerges out of that is how the stories, particularly when

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