I first met Tim Wise about 20 years ago. He was speaking at a Brooklyn church, and I was dumbfounded. I have never heard a white man speak so impassionately about race and racism. And when I got my

radio show at Sirius XM, I was excited to have him on because this guy gets it. But what he also

gets, which is the same thing that Jane Elliott and others, Robin DeAngelo, Aaron Belfour and a few others

that I have gone to to have these discussions. And I was obsessed in the first

couple of years with having this discussion because I felt like if we're going to solve the

problem of race and racism in America, we need white people on board. I've changed a little bit,

but what I understand even more is that race is just a tool. It's a made-up construct. It doesn't

really exist. But what we're

really dealing with is power. And what we're really dealing with is figuring out how to check power

so that people aren't oppressed. And so whether we talk about it in the framework of racism,

that matters not because the reality is Tim Wise is speaking up for something far greater.

And so my interview with him, hope you enjoy it, but it reminds me of the Martin Niemealler poem.

First they came for, where he talks about first they came for the socialists, and I didn't speak

out because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionist, and I didn't speak out because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak out because I was not a Jew.

Then they came from me, and there was no one left to speak from me.

Now, Tim Wise is a Jew, but he understands probably more than the average, quote-unquote, white person,

that when there's no one to speak out,

then everyone is vulnerable. And so I hope that you listen to this. But more importantly,

the reason why I'm doing this podcast is because not everyone can afford serious XM or not

everyone has serious XM. And in order for these messages to actually catch fire and to make a difference, it requires you to do some work and share it with people who would not ordinarily tune in.

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