We've trained Christians in order to have church. You need a drummer, you need a bass player,

you need all of these things. To which I replied, you don't need a bass player for church.

There are Sundays we intentionally and regularly just have our music director and his guitar,

and that's it. And then the next week we'll have a full six-piece band.

But I like the diversity of it because it trains us not to rely on what's happening on the platform

for us to participate, or to say it differently, it unattaches us from performance culture.

Matt Boswell serves as senior pastor at the Trails Church in North Texas.

He's also a professor of worship ministries at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary,

a hymn writer, and the author of What If I Don't Like My Church's Music, which is part of the Nine Marks Church Questions series from Crossway. Well, Matt, thanks so much for joining me again on the

Crossway podcast. Honor to be here. So Matt, we all know you as a musician and as a hymn writer

who's written or co-written many modern classics. I'm thinking of

songs like His Mercy is More or Christ, our hope in life and death, which probably has to be

one of my favorites lately. That one, if you look at my Apple Music, that one's up there in terms of the

number of times listened to.

And so a lot of us know you in that context.

But you're also a pastor.

You planted a church a number of years ago where you currently serve as lead pastor.

And you've also led music in your church for many years at times.

So I wonder if you could just speak to that side of your life,

of your ministry, kind of you're not on a big stage, not writing music necessarily, but just ministry in a local church. What's that been like for you? Well, I grew up in a pastor's home,

and I developed a love for the local church from a young age and enjoyed being a part of the church,

being reared in the church, loving the people, loving Christ. And that role was so formative in my own life

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