Michael Heiser is one of the most influential modern theologians. His book, Unseen Realm, has sold

probably close to half a million copies, and his YouTube videos have generated tens of millions of views.

In fact, my interview with Heiser about three years ago is the most widely viewed interview on YouTube I've ever done.

What is the supernatural worldview that he teaches? Is it Orthodox? And should Christians and non-Christians engage his writings?

I've been asked these questions for years. And given that a 10-year expanded and updated version of his book, The Unseen Realm, releases this summer, it's time for a deep dive.

So to join us today is Chair of the Old Testament at Talbot School Theology, my colleague and friend, Charlie Trim.

Thanks for doing this.

Thank you for having me on. Well, I've been asked, like I said, for years, my Thanks for doing this. Thank you for having me on.

Well, I've been asked, like I said, for years, my thoughts on Heiser. And I'm not an Old Testament

scholar, so I felt a little bit out of my depth. And I've wanted to do this. The moment I saw

this update, I was like, it's time. And you're the first person who came to mind. So I asked you before I even knew if you agreed to them or

disagreed with him. But the point of this is to just do a deep dive on what he taught and get a

counter perspective of an Old Testament scholar and then we'll let people decide for themselves

where they land. With that said, let's just start with a question for those wondering who is Michael

Heiser. Who is he? So Michael Heiser is an Old Testament scholar. He got his PhD at University of

Wisconsin-Madison at a premier Semitic program. He published several articles in academic world,

but he's most well known, as you said, for the book, The Unseen Realm and

similar books like angels and demons and so on. And he was interestingly never a tenure-track

professor after getting his Ph.D. But he worked at Logos and then worked at a school for a few

years. Sadly, he passed away a few years ago from

pancreatic cancer, and so he's not with us anymore. Michael Heiser is brilliant. He's a creative

novel thinker, and he's so gracious and kind in my interactions with him. So he's missed. In some

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