The one question that saves product careers | Matt LeMay

Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career

Lenny Rachitsky

Technology, Business, Entrepreneurship

5 • 1.5K Ratings

🗓️ 14 August 2025

⏱️ 92 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

Matt LeMay spent 13 years as a music critic at Pitchfork before becoming one of product management’s most influential voices. He’s consulted with companies from startups to Fortune 500s and authored two essential PM books, including Impact-First Product Teams. After watching countless product teams get laid off despite “doing everything right,” he discovered a harsh truth: most PMs are optimizing for the wrong things.

In this conversation, you’ll learn:

1. The one question that predicts if your team will survive the next layoffs (and why most teams can’t answer it)

2. Why following product “best practices” perfectly can actually accelerate your path to unemployment

3. The “low-impact PM death spiral”—how teams accidentally make themselves irrelevant

4. How to push back on executives without saying “no” (the options, plus a recommendation framework)

5. The counterintuitive reason why the happiest PMs are also the most commercially minded

6. The Liz Phair review that made Matt an internet villain for 22 years—and what it taught him about product management

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Brought to you by:

Enterpret—Transform customer feedback into product growth: https://enterpret.com/lenny

Pragmatic Institute—Industry‑recognized product, marketing, and AI training & certifications: https://pragmaticinstitute.com/lenny

Claude.ai—The AI for problem solvers and enterprise: http://claude.ai/

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Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-one-question-that-saves-product-careers-matt-lemay

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My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/168109376/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation

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Where to find Matt LeMay:

• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mttlmy

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mattlemay/

• Website: https://mattlemay.com/

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Introduction to Matt LeMay

(04:23) Matt’s background and transition to product management

(06:47) The goal of Matt's new book

(12:00) How to stress test your thinking as a PM

(15:32) Thinking like the CEO

(17:33) The role of a product manager

(23:36) The low-impact PM death spiral

(27:47) Case study: Mailchimp’s transition to a platform company

(32:53) Radical acceptance

(41:24) Embracing constraints in product management

(44:23) Steps to become an impact-first product team

(49:38) Setting effective goals

(01:02:15) Prioritization and impact estimation

(01:07:58) Navigating stakeholder management

(01:12:35) Summarizing the 3 steps

(01:16:36) Lightning round and final thoughts

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Referenced:

• Pitchfork: https://pitchfork.com/

• Daniel Ek’s memo: https://newsroom.spotify.com/2023-12-04/an-update-on-december-2023-organizational-changes/

• How to create a winning product strategy | Melissa Perri: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-create-a-winning-product-strategy

• Everything you’ve ever wanted to know about SAFe and the product owner role | Melissa Perri (author, founder of Product Institute): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/product-owners-melissa-perri

• Mailchimp: https://mailchimp.com/

• Intuit: https://www.intuit.com/

• Natalia Williams on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nataliatwilliams/

• The ultimate guide to OKRs | Christina Wodtke (Stanford): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-okrs-christina

• Miro: https://miro.com/

• Prioritizing: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/prioritizing

• Temptation Island on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81744518

• Mark L. Walberg’s website: https://markwalbergtv.com/about

• Antiques Roadshow on PBS: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/

• Milkman amp: https://milkmansound.com/collections/amplifiers/products/the-amp

• Matt’s review of Liz Phair’s self-titled album: https://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/6255-liz-phair/

• Pitchfork Critic Apologizes for Bashing Liz Phair Album; Singer Graciously Accepts: https://variety.com/2019/music/news/pitchfork-critic-apologizes-liz-phair-album-review-zero-score-1203326897/

• RedMonk: https://redmonk.com/

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Recommended books:

• Product Management in Practice: A Practical, Tactical Guide for Your First Day and Every Day After: https://www.amazon.com/Product-Management-Practice-Practical-Tactical/dp/1098119738/r

• Impact-First Product Teams: Define Success. Do Work That Matters. Be Indispensable.: https://www.amazon.com/Impact-first-Product-Teams-Success-Indispensable/dp/B0DVH4R3QJ

• Escaping the Build Trap: How Effective Product Management Creates Real Value: https://www.amazon.com/Escaping-Build-Trap-Effective-Management/dp/B08B46C8R1/

• Radical Focus: Achieving Your Most Important Goals with Objectives and Key Results: https://www.amazon.com/Radical-Focus-Achieving-Important-Objectives/dp/0996006028

• The Wisdom of Insecurity: A Message for an Age of Anxiety: https://www.amazon.com/Wisdom-Insecurity-Message-Age-Anxiety/dp/0307741206/

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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Transcript

Click on a timestamp to play from that location

0:00.0	More product managers and teams are getting laid off. The problem is the message that Daniel
0:04.6	Eck from Spotify sent out with their layoffs in 2024, we still have too many teams doing
0:09.5	work around the work. Even if you are told to build a thing that the execs are really excited
0:13.7	about, you're still going to get fired eventually. If you were the CEO of this company, would
0:18.4	you fully fund your own team? Frankly, most of the people I ask that question to don't know the answer right away,
0:24.2	which is something you call the low-imp death spiral.
0:26.7	It's the dynamic in which every medium to large company I've ever worked with finds itself in one way or another.
0:33.3	It starts with adding little features here and there, making little cosmetic improvements until the next round of layoffs. You have three steps to become more of an impact first product team. So the first is in setting team goals no more than one step away from company goals. Don't let it get cascaded into oblivion. You're an ICPM. It's up to you. No excuses. You can follow all the best practices, but if your company
0:54.7	goes out of business, they're not going to keep writing your paycheck for two years because all of your
0:58.2	OKRs were a 0.6 or a 0.7. Today, my guest is Matt Lame. Matt is a longtime product leader, author
1:05.7	of one of the most popular and practical books in the field of product management called
1:09.9	product management in practice. And over the course of product management called product management in
1:11.0	practice. And over the course of his consulting practice, he's worked with hundreds of product
1:15.2	teams, helping them improve how they operate and drive more impact more consistently. From that
1:20.2	experience, he wrote and recently published a new book called Impact First Product Teams that I
1:25.3	could not agree more with. In our conversation, Matt shares why it is so essential to align all of your work with business-critical outcomes,
1:32.9	especially if you fear layoffs at your company.
1:35.5	We talk about the low-impact death spiral that many product teams fall into.
1:39.5	What steps an individual product team can take to align their work to business-critical outcomes,
1:44.4	regardless of how their organization approaches product development,
1:47.6	tips for how to push back on stupid ideas that execs ask you to build,
1:51.5	and so much more, the message in this episode is one that I believe every product manager
	...

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