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This is Fresh Air. I'm Dave Davies.

Our guest, veteran journalist Anne Applebaum's new cover story in the Atlantic, is based on her recent trips to Sudan, the African nation that is again torn by conflict, this time between the country's army and a powerful paramilitary group.

Her story is about the consequences of civil war and ethnic conflict fueled in part by foreign governments, providing arms and money to chosen combatants.

The effects are predictable and heartbreaking.

Death, injury, starvation, and the displacement of millions of people.

But Applebound story is also about what happens when the international community of nations,

nonprofits, and networks such as the United Nations, which normally intervene to help in conflict

zones, falls away or becomes ineffective. The Trump administration's dismantling of the U.S.

Agency for International Development and the president's skepticism of foreign aid are

part of that story, but there are other factors as well. Applebaum's story is titled,

This is what the end of the liberal world order looks like. Applebaum has also written extensively

on the war in Ukraine. We'll talk about the evolving role of the United States in that

conflict and what lies ahead. Anne Applebaum is a staff writer for the Atlantic and a journalist

whose distinguished career includes 15 years as a columnist for The Washington Post, where she also

served on the editorial board. She's written several books, her most recent Autocracy, Inc.,

the dictators who want to run the world, comes out in paperback later this month.

Applebaum is also a senior fellow at the SNF Agora Institute at Johns Hopkins University and the School of Advanced International Studies.

Our interview was recorded yesterday morning.

Anne Applebaum, welcome back to fresh air. Tell us why you wanted to make these true reporting trips to

...