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From Wendery, I'm Brooke Sifrin, and I'm Aresha Skidmore Williams.

And this is Even the Rich.

Over the last four episodes, we followed Madonna as she went from a couch surfing,

aspiring dancer in New York to a record-breaking rock and roll holo-famer.

But Madonna's story isn't over yet.

She's still working, making music, and reminding us all that no one does it quite like the Queen

of Pop.

Exactly.

Nothing slows Madonna down, and she's hard at work on the next chapter in her ongoing evolution.

Now we know how Madonna got here, but we don't know as much about how she stayed here,

especially given all the criticism she received.

Right, so today we're talking to author Roxanne Gay about sexuality in the 1980s,

ageism in the music industry, and what makes Madonna a bad feminist.

Roxanne Gay is a writer, co-host of the Luminary Podcast here to slay, and the author behind

several books, including The New York Times' bestseller, Bad Feminist.

Before we get to that, though, I feel like we should talk about our own relationship to Madonna.

Like I feel like everybody has their Madonna moment where they first discovered her, right?

Oh, 100%.

My first memory of Madonna that really was like, this is Madonna, she's on the map in my head,

...