Hi everyone. My name is Glenn Dyson and I'm joined today by Alexander McCurris and Professor Richard Sacka.

So Professor Sacka is a retired emeritus professor of Russian and European politics at University of Kent.

I would say the greatest Russia scholar we have in Europe, an author of 18 plus books,

and citing his work has become obligatory now for any serious Russia scholar.

So yeah, welcome to you both.

Thank you very much.

I have a pleasure to be fair.

Yes, so the reason where we have Professor Sackwar today is to discuss a book he had coming

out last year, which is the lost piece, how the West failed to prevent a second Cold War.

So, yeah, you'll have the chance to correct me, of course. But the way I understand it, the foundational argument would be effectively, we've been attempting to navigate between two orders. This is where the loss of the peace began. So I guess after the Cold War, in the West, we already lived in two worlds. We had the internal order of the political West organized under

U.S. hegemony, and then we had more or less the external order under the UN Charter, based

more sovereign equality. One could argue the more Vestvalian model. And the challenge, of course,

after the Cold War, and then two years later when the Soviet Union collapsed, there was two possible

systems on the menu. So on one hand, we had the opportunity to either expand the internal order,

that is to make the Atlantis' order, effectively the new world order, that is,

hegemony under the United States and the liberal ideals, or we could form more of an inclusive sovereign system based more on the UN Charter, that of 1945.

Now, obviously, towards the end of the Cold War, we had this conflict.

Gorbachev wanted this common European home, which very much resembles this sovereignty-based internationalism.

And then on the other side, you had the US calling for Europe, Poland, free,

which is more organized around US hegemony and sovereign inequality.

So obviously we ended up with the American order in which you write in the book,

the inside order became the outside order, if I understood it correctly. And effectively, yeah, a hegemonic peace plus liberal universalism to mitigate the anarchy of the international system.

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