Hey friends, welcome, so delighted that you're here with me today. And today I have the pleasure of

chatting with Patrick Radenkeef, who is a phenomenal writer. He writes for the New Yorker. He's written a book that I've recommended to many of you called Empire of Payne and he's a new book out called rogues and I'm just so excited to hear from him. I know you're going to love this conversation. So let's dive in. I'm Sharon McMahon and welcome to the Sharon Says So podcast. I'm super excited to be chatting with Patrick Red and Keith today. I am such a fan of your work. Thank you so much for joining me.

Oh, thank you. I'm so pleased to be with you. I find your writing so riveting. You have such a knack for crafting a story based on true things that makes you want to keep reading like writing a page

corner that's based in reality is no small feat. I'm so pleased to hear you say so. When I

write I think about myself as a reader and I think about what draws me into a book or a magazine article and what pushes me out of it and so I'm always trying to just pull you in any way I can.

Mm. And that's one of the challenges too with writing nonfiction is because sometimes what would make a really great plot point

didn't really happen. You can't do it. But sometimes what happens in real life is way

weirder than any fiction you could have invented. That's very much the way I

think about it. I mean you're absolutely right. Sometimes you want the

story to go someplace and it just doesn't go there which can be

frustrating but the flip side is I think of it as like found art or you're

walking on the beach with your kids and they find some weird rock or seashell.

That's kind of my whole job is to go out and talk to people and interview people and dig into court documents.

And the stuff that I stumble across in the people and

more dramatic

anything I could in a court documents.

And the stuff that I stumble across in the real world

and more dramatic than anything I could invent

if you put me in a room with a typewriter, it's endlessly fascinating.

It is so true that if you tried to include some of these plot points in a fiction book, your editor

would be like, come on.

Watch, yeah, come on.

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