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Unbelievable?

The Great Morality Debate: Secularism vs. Christianity with Dr Michael Shermer and Rev. Glen Scrivener

Unbelievable?

Premier Unbelievable?

Christianity, Religion & Spirituality

4.62.3K Ratings

🗓️ 25 October 2024

⏱️ 85 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

In this episode of Premier Unbelievable?, host Vince Vitale moderates a riveting debate that tackles one of the most profound questions in philosophy, religion, and ethics: Can we be 'good' without God? 🤔✨ Dr. Michael Shermer, renowned skeptic and author of The Moral Arc, joins Glen Scrivener, Anglican minister, author of The Air We Breathe, speaker and filmmaker who directs the charity Speak Life, to explore the origins and foundations of morality. Together, they address whether human morality is the product of secular, scientific, and cultural evolution 🧠🌍, or whether it is deeply rooted in divine principles, particularly those derived from Christianity ✝️🙏 . This conversation explores key arguments on both sides. Shermer argues that morality can be understood through secular reasoning 🌐 with frameworks like utilitarianism and deontology 📜, and that moral values evolve over time through cultural shifts and reason. He contends that religion has not always been a reliable moral guide and that objective moral values can exist independently of God, emerging from evolutionary and cultural processes. Shermer emphasizes that moral progress, such as individual rights from the Enlightenment 🕊️, often arises from philosophical reasoning and societal change, not divine command. On the other hand, Scrivener argues that many moral principles, especially the inherent value of every individual, are rooted in Christian theology ✝️. He asserts that human rights and justice ⚖️  are inseparable from Christian teachings, which have historically shaped modern morality. Scrivenor highlights Christianity’s role in moral progress, such as the abolition of slavery and the concept of universal human worth. While recognizing cultural and philosophical influences, he argues that without a divine source, the foundation of absolute moral values is unstable. #MoralityDebate #GoodWithoutGod #PhilosophyAndReligion #MichaelShermer #GlenScrivener #ChristianityVsAtheism #SecularMorality #FaithAndReason #theenlightenment #humanrights #MoralProgress #EthicsDebate #SpeakLife #UnbelievablePodcast For Glen Scrivener Speak Life https://speaklife.org.uk/ YouTube: @SpeakLifeMedia X: @glenscrivener For Michael Shermer https://michaelshermer.com/ YouTube: @skepticmagazine X: @michaelshermer Further Reading: The Science of Good and Evil: Why People Cheat, Gossip, Care, Share, and Follow the Golden Rule, Michael Shermer - https://amzn.to/3Afd5AKThe Moral Arc, Michael Shermer - https://amzn.to/3YiYfRJ The Air We Breathe: How We All Came to Believe in Freedom, Kindness, Progress, and Equality, Glen Scrivener - https://amzn.to/3NFRggWHow To See Life: A Guide In 321, Glen Scrivener - https://amzn.to/48pb55I

Transcript

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0:00.0

I don't know how it happened.

0:03.0

Two big groups of lads pushing and shoving, someone screamed.

0:07.0

Then he was just lying there.

0:10.0

It was horrible.

0:12.0

All I could think was... It was, how do you tell us mom?

0:15.0

Help church army bring healing where there's pain

0:20.0

and show young people a different way.

0:23.0

Join our Army of Hope.

0:25.0

Give today at church army.org

0:27.0

forward slash premiere.

0:29.0

Can we be good without God?

0:32.0

I want to just jump right in because I think people often sort of nibble on the periphery of this debate without ever getting to the heart of it.

0:39.7

You make a case you say that even if God does exist or did exist morality should still

0:46.4

be grounded in secular arguments and evidence not in God. I apply that

0:51.5

universal realism to moral realism. I think there are absolute rights and wrongs, not in every sphere of human action, but many of them.

1:00.0

As soon as you've said that in addition to matter in motion, you've also got things like minds,

1:06.1

you've also got things like maths, you've also got things like music and beauty and all those sorts of things,

1:11.6

and you've got these things called

1:13.1

moral truths said that we're living in a very theological sounding universe and I

1:17.6

don't think it's coincidental that it's people who believe in a theological

1:22.3

universe who also bring that morality to bear on nature

1:26.7

historically most of the opponents of abolitionism were Christians and they they made sound, in their minds anyway,

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