It's the people, the workers, the consumers in both countries and around the world that are

being exploited by corporate interests and by national security interests. And I think that is

part of the sadness that these techno-nationalistic and state capitalist rhetoric are foreclosing

the political and moral imagination in terms of thinking about what are

these communications technologies actually for.

Thank you. Hello and welcome to Tech Won't Save Us, made in partnership with The Nation magazine. I'm your host,

Paris Marks, and this week my guest is Yang Yang Chang. Yang is a research scholar in law and a fellow at the Yale Law School's Poltseye China Center.

Now, Yang Yang has been on the show in the past, but I wanted to have her back because we talk a lot about these major American tech companies, right?

The Amazon's, the apples.

But we don't talk nearly enough on the show about these major Chinese tech companies, which are not just global firms in their own right, but have

increasingly been drawn into this geopolitical battle between the United States and China, which

means that we should have a much greater understanding of what they are, what they do, where they

come from. And that's why this week I wanted to discuss Huawei, which is a company that you might know from,

you know, it's phones and tablets and things like that if you're in a market where those are

sold.

But it's actually a major telecommunications company in the sense that it makes a lot of the kind

of switches and underlying hardware that allows us to communicate with one another around the

world.

At this point, it's one of the four dominant firms creating these kinds of technologies. Huawei and ZTE are the Chinese ones. And then

you have Nokia and Erickson in Europe. And those four companies are kind of the major players in this

space now. There's a new book out recently from Iva Du called The House of Huawei,

which I'm in the process of reading and am finding really fascinating to learn about the history

...