I mean, I would love it if there was like a coherent cohesive, let's say Mitt Romney led

faction of the Republican Party that was like a counterweight to Trumpism, but I feel like

there hopes have been dropping every month since 2016.

Right, but I think the point is that's because they don't have power, right? Again, these people

were used to the idea that they were the natural people to run the Republican Party,

and they got pushed out by this new Trump aside. So they weren't used to the idea that they had

to organize themselves in order to protect their own interests. And again, that's where

that's what they needed to be doing the day after Trump was elected. Just being against Trump

is not enough, right? That's what voter and just saying we want to go back to the way things are

is not enough, because voters don't want to go back to the thing the way things were. They don't

want a restoration of the Austin-Augurgese, right? And that's where I, again, I think there's been a

failure of ideas and that's not.

This week, on forward, we welcome political science professor John Hopkins,

senior fellow at the NISGain and Center, author of several fascinating books, including NeverTrump,

Revolt of the Conservative elites. Steven Tellus joins us. Welcome, Steven.

Thank you for having me, Andrew. It's great to have you, and I am a fan of your work. I

feel like the NISGain and Center might be the most relevant thing tank to what I've been working

on for quite some time. I cite your research all the time, maybe not yours individually since

there are a bunch of people there. How would you, how, the people are part of Johns Hopkins,

so they're like, okay, political science professor Johns Hopkins, they get, how would you describe

the NISGain and Center? So the NISGain and Center is a somewhat complicated operation to explain.

I often explain it as synthesizing things people think are contradictions, right? So a lot of the

...