Pride is one of those vices that virtually everyone would say is bad, but it's one that many of us still struggle with on a daily basis.

More than just the love of fame or attention, our pride is often subtle, manifesting itself in how we talk to one another,

in how we respond to difficult circumstances,

and in how we approach reconciliation with others when we sin or when we've been sinned against.

Humility, on the other hand, is a life-giving virtue, life-giving for us, and life-giving for others.

But as with pride, it's often misunderstood. In my interview today, I'm talking with

Gavin Ortland about misconceptions we often have about humility, like that it's hiding our strengths

or abilities. We also explore why humility is so foundational for experiencing true joy in Christ.

Gavin serves as senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Ohio in Ohio, California,

and as the author of several books, including Humility, the Joy of Self-Forgitfulness from Crossway.

Let's get started.

Well, Gavin, thank you so much for joining me again on the Crossway podcast.

Hey, great to be with you, Matt. So today we're going to spend some time talking about humility,

a virtue that I think we all would say is important. Christians know the importance of humility for our lives, but it's nevertheless

probably something that most of us would do well to focus a little bit more attention on and

cultivating in our own lives. But before we get to a positive definition of humility, what is

humility? I wonder if you could start by telling us what it's not. And so I thought it could be fun to hear you complete the sentence.

Humility is not what?

Yeah, it is helpful to sometimes ward off these misconceptions

because there are a lot of them out there.

And sometimes I found Christians don't think about specific virtues as much.

We just think very generally about spirituality, but we don't think about specific virtues as much. We just think very generally about spirituality,

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