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This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. Terry Gross has a few days off, but recently she recorded this interview about

psychedelic science, the use of mind-altering substances as a therapeutic tool or a way

to expand consciousness. Here's Terry.

Psychodelic science began much earlier than you may think back in the 1920s and 30s.

At the center of that research was Margaret Mead, the famous anthropologist and her third

husband Gregory Bateson, one of the most controversial anthropologists of his time.

That early history is covered in the new book by my guest Benjamin Breen.

He writes about Mead and Bateson's early utopian-oriented research,

then how during World War II they worked on a team using hypnosis and mind-altering drugs in an attempt

to defeat Hitler and fascism.

The CIA's secret psychedelic experiments of the 50s and 60s, and how all this connects to the counterculture of the 60s,

which popularized LSD, meiskelen, and magic mushrooms.

Breen goes down lots of interesting side roads along the way.

For example, NASA funded an experiment. Green goes down lots of interesting side roads along the way.

For example, NASA funded an experiment giving

psychedelics to dolphins in an attempt to teach them to speak.

One of those dolphins appeared on the TV show Flipper.

Breen's new book is called Tripping on Utopia,

Margaret Mead, the Cold War,

and the Troubled Birth of Psychodelic Science.

...