I hadn't really gotten the depth of his turning against Joe McCarthy.

I hadn't realized how much of that had to do with chambers is discussed with McCarthy

for exploiting the lavender scare.

And it came out of one particular episode, which was the man Eisenhower nominated to be

his ambassador in Moscow, got him Charles Bowlin.

Joe McCarthy tried to smear him by accusing him in a sub-rosal language of having been

gay.

And chambers went nuts about that because he felt himself really vulnerable.

We didn't really talk on our podcast about chambers' own sexuality.

I mean, as you know in the book, he was so afraid that this was going to be the way that

he was discredited, the fact that he had had all these homosexual liaisons.

If you living a clandestine gay life, you develop a lot of the skills that it's fine

needs.

Yeah.

But it was also always in the air of even the sort of animosity towards him being like,

well, this guy was just in love with Alger Hiss and you know, that's what explains this

sort of spurned lover kind of quality to this encounter.

And I think Hiss was sending a lot of tacit messages about that.

Yeah, you can see that.

Yeah.

And when chambers said those very famous lines, you know, I'm not working out a grudge

or personal animus toward Alger Hiss, that was all about trying to say, I'm not an angry

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