You talk a lot about the, uh, the co-opation of the, uh, the, um, the energy. You get on the ground swell of these, uh, these conflict moments, these moments where society kind of compact and demands reform and demands change that we were living in the thick of a few years ago. And, uh, as we were talking about a second ago, the, the, the pressure on the ruling class is kind of off right now compared

to what it was back then. And you would talk about in the book, maybe how we've gotten here

from there and an analysis of the uprising in a way that was really fascinating. I want to take the

conversation back to, it's, you know, the core of what we're talking about today, which is

the U.S. penal system, folks, you've heard about it. It sounds bad. We actually have a guest here

who has been to Rikers Island in 2014 after a crackdown for the, in support of the uprising

in Missouri.

How was that?

Did you like it?

What's your five-star review of Rikers Island?

Do you have a Yelp account that's reviewed it?

Well, as my favorite musician, Freddie Madball, would say, you know, not long.

Uh-huh. Long enough to write this song, as he added, about actually being held in the same building. So I was actually

there for a very short amount of time at the Eric M. Taylor Center in 2016. And it provided the

basis for what became captives. I became very interested in the social role that this facility

played in New York City because it's often

represented as removed from the city. People are disappeared there, often very literally,

people are put there away from access to their families.

And sometimes people don't even know where they are.

And it's a jail, right?

So it's where they're kept before trial.

Yes, it's actually, it's an island.

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