Surviving Assholes and Building Better Organizations with Bob Sutton 7 | 14

Radical Candor: Communication at Work

Radical Candor

Business, Management, Careers

4.7 • 729 Ratings

🗓️ 2 April 2025

⏱️ 58 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

Being the boss isn’t about power trips—it’s about leaving your jerk card at the door.

Turns out, surviving the workplace often comes down to one simple rule: don’t be an asshole. Kim Scott and Amy Sandler sit down with Stanford’s Bob Sutton, author of The No Asshole Rule and The Friction Project, to talk about how real leadership means treating people like people, not just cogs in a machine. Bob gets straight to the point about why toxic behavior kills productivity, how organizational “friction” can be both helpful and harmful, and what it takes to build teams that fight fair and thrive together. They also tackle why efficient isn’t always effective, how to spot—and stop—assholes before they do lasting damage, and why the best bosses aren’t afraid to show up with both candor and care. As Kim puts it, sometimes it’s better to have a hole than an asshole. Whether you're leading a team or just trying to survive one, this conversation is your reminder that treating people with decency is never optional—and if you're stuck choosing between keeping an asshole or leaving a hole, always go with the hole.

Get all of the show notes at RadicalCandor.com/podcast.

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Chapters:

(00:00:00) Introduction
Kim and Amy introduce Stanford Professor Emeritus Bob Sutton.

(00:01:35) The No Asshole Rule Origin Story
How Bob’s research into organizational decline led to a focus on workplace jerks.

(00:07:02) Layoffs Done Right (And Wrong)
Kim and Bob trade stories on compassionate vs. catastrophic layoffs.

(00:11:16) Good Friction vs. Bad Friction
The Friction Project and why not all efficiency is actually efficient

(00:16:23) Building Emotional Trust
How emotional trust grows and fuels creative partnerships.

(00:24:58) The Asshole Survival Guide: 4 Ways to Deal
Strategies for handling difficult people and navigating toxic environments.

(00:29:50) Certified vs. Clueless Assholes
Recognizing the moments when you might actually be the asshole.

(00:33:47) It Happens at the Listener’s Ear
How context shapes whether something feels candid or cruel.

(00:38:59) Decision-Making, Simplicity & Reversibility
Questions friction-fixers ask to decide when to slow down or speed up.

(00:46:15) Gossip as a Strategic Tool
The ways gossip can help you avoid toxic work environments.

(00:52:03) Fixing Friction at Stanford
Bob shares his current work helping Stanford reduce internal friction.

(00:55:54) Where to Find Bob Sutton
Where to find Bob and his books — plus a final note on long emails.

(00:56:50) Conclusion

Transcript

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0:00.0	Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Radical Canter Podcast. I'm Kim Scott. I'm Amy Sandler, and today we are so
0:09.6	excited to welcome Stanford Professor Emeritus Bob Sutton to discuss how to lead and build
0:16.8	effective organizations that don't sacrifice people for profit.
0:22.4	Bob is an organizational psychologist and best-selling author of eight books.
0:27.0	Is that right, Bob?
0:27.8	Eight books?
0:28.8	Yes, yes, eight books.
0:30.6	Eight books.
0:31.2	I'm an old academic, so we have a lot of time to write.
0:35.1	These books include the no-asshole rule, and I think that's one of Kim's favorite words and books, and the friction project. And Bob studies leadership, innovation, organizational change, and workplace dynamics. We're going to dig into all of it. His main focus over the past decade is on scaling and leading at scale.
0:56.8	So how can you grow organizations, spread good things, remove bad things in teams and organizations,
1:03.8	and enhance performance, innovation, and well-being.
1:07.5	Welcome to the show, Bob Sutton.
1:10.0	All right, Amy, thanks. That was a fabulous introduction.
1:12.3	I think you know me better than I know me, so that's wonderful. Well, my goal by the end of the
1:18.8	conversation is that we all know Bob Sutton a little bit better, maybe even Bob Sutton.
1:23.9	Everybody loves Bob Sutton as much as we love Bob.
1:28.5	Thrilled to be chatting with you.
1:31.6	Oh, it's great to be talking to you, Kim and Amy, fabulous.
1:35.2	So, Bob, why don't we start out talking about sort of take a giant step back?
1:42.1	You have been doing research since you wrote a dissertation on sort of
1:49.4	organizations, how to survive assholes as well to create a no asshole rule. And what kind of friction is good and what kind of friction is bad?
	...

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