Welcome to the Atlantic interview. I'm Jeffrey Goldberg, the editor-in-chief of the

Atlantic and today I'm talking with one of the world's leading experts on the

seemingly endless wars in Pakistan and Afghanistan. So naturally I'd like to begin with Moby Dick and

you'll see there's a reason for this. In the opening chapter of Moby Dick which is this wonderfully

modern interior novel.

Ishmael, the protagonist, wonders how God or Providence, sees his whaling voyage.

Doubtless, my going on this whaling voyage formed part of the grand program of Providence

that was drawn up a long time ago.

It came in as a sort of brief interlude and solo between more extensive performances.

I take it that this part of the bill must have run something like this.

Grand contested election for the presidency of the United States wailing voyage by one Ishmael, Bloody Battle in Afghanistan.

So this is Herman Melville writing roughly 168 years ago and talking about the fact that there is this enduring bloody conflict in Afghanistan.

And this passage has always struck me as a rejoinder in a way to those who argue that Afghanistan is a solvable problem.

So to understand why Americans have been fighting and dying in Afghanistan for 17 years

and why the whole region seems unfixable,

I needed to talk to Steve Kahl.

Steve became famous on this subject for his book Ghost Wars, which won the Pulitzer Prize.

Steve, welcome to the big broadcast.

Thank you for having me, Jeffrey.

Steve is also the Dean of Columbia Journalism School, which makes him the Dean of All Journalism.

Yes, I appreciate that.

And the reason you're here is you have a new book which is sort of part two of

...