Welcome to Untangle, the podcast from five-star app meditation studio and muse, the brain-sensing

headband that gives you feedback on your meditation practice.

I'm Patricia Carpice, co-founder of Meditation Studio, and your host on Untangle, along with

my co-host, Muse founder, Ariel Garden.

Today, I interview Spring Washam, author of an amazing book called A Fierce Heart,

Finding Strength, Courage, and Wisdom in Any Moment.

She shares her thoughts on how to emerge from the darkest moments in our lives,

and even use suffering as a catalyst for growth.

She talks about things like divine patience and even humor as resources for when we're in

these really, really tough places.

She also shares the work she's now doing combining plant-based medicines with meditation in Peru

and how this powerful blend of ayahuasca and meditation

can be so transformative. She's a beautiful soul who shares so much wisdom in this interview.

Now, here's Spring. Spring, it's really so great to finally have you on Untangle. Thanks so much for being with us today.

Oh, it's an honor to be here and I'm so happy it finally has happened.

I know, right? Yay. I want to start with a really simple question. How did you come to meditation

originally? What is your journey there?

Well, you know, when I was a teenager, I was really interested in psychology. And I mostly was

interested in it to try to figure out my own depression, trying to work with my mind. I had this

really clear insight, very young age. Something's wrong with my mind. I had this really clear insight, very young age, something's wrong

with my mind. And I've got to understand what's happening with my mind. So I had read about

meditation a lot in a lot of different self-help books. And I really got into it when I was 23 and someone left a book about meditation by

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