And what I do with the work that I do is try and disarm people because one of the things that absolutely puts people off is if you go in and wag your finger from a moral position of moral high, you think is moral high ground and you start chastising them for not

being the right kind of people. Frankly, you're not going to engage them and we need to engage them.

We need to engage them in doing diversity properly so it really values

what people bring differently and doing politics properly. You know we need to

go back to building big alliances and it is one of the bizarre things about those people who say

they're non-binary.

In political terms they're often the most binary people who have a beat.

And now the good fight with Yasha Monck.

My guest today is Simon Fenshaw.

Simon is the rector of the University of Edinburgh and one of the founders of the LGBT charity Stonewall.

He's also a former stand-up comedian and our conversation was very funny and hugely entertaining as well as I hope informative.

We talked during the conversation about how you can do diversity work in companies and other settings without

privileging an oppressor versus oppressed framework without making people

feel like they are being lectured. We talked about what made the gay rights movement so successful, how activists like

Fancho tried to argue for their point of view at a time when it was hugely unpopular and how that contrasts with many social movements today.

And finally we talked about the important role of humor in politics.

Simon French, welcome to the podcast.

Well, I'm absolutely delighted.

Thank you for asking me.

You do a lot of diversity work, but you root your diversity work in the thought of people like John Stewart Mill

and the spirit of the Enlightenment. How do you think most diversity work gets that wrong and what is different about the kind of

diversity work that you engage in?

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