From the ACLU, this is At Liberty.

I'm Emerson Sykes, a staff attorney here at the ACLU and your host.

This holiday week, we're thankful for all the inspiring guests who've come on at Liberty to share their stories and their work.

I'm so happy that today we're bringing back one of my favorite conversations of the year with novelist and attorney Sergio de la Pava.

We originally recorded this episode live at the Brooklyn Public Library, and the conversation was an absolute gem.

Sergio de la Pava won the Penn Bingham Prize for his debut novel, A Naked Singularity in 2012,

and recently released Lost Empress, a postmodern epic about football, criminal justice, Joni Mitchell, and just about everything in between. Mr. Dela Pava is not only

the author of critically acclaimed books, he's also a full-time public defender, having represented

thousands of criminal defendants over the last two decades. We discussed both his literary and legal

work, as well as his approach to life. I hope you enjoy this deep cut from the At Liberty Archives.

Thank you.

Good evening.

Thanks very much for coming out.

And thanks very much to the Brooklyn Public Library for hosting at Liberty for the second time.

I just wanted to maybe start by asking Sergio to do a brief reading to begin our conversation tonight.

Thank you all for being here.

Nice to see you. All right, let's see.

What would education look like if its ultimate goal were incarceration? Where would it occur?

There are many fertile possibilities. For example, in East New York, Brooklyn, you have Cypress Hills

houses, a housing project made up of 15, seven-story

buildings that at times seems more penal than anything the New York City Department of Correction

could ever devise. Locations like that, where shots were once fired during a mayoral press

...