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🗓️ 24 November 2025
⏱️ 29 minutes
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Both major parties are experiencing a crisis of leadership in Washington. President Trump’s flip-flopping on the Epstein files acknowledges that, on this issue, at least, he has lost control of MAGA. For the Democrats, the collapse of their consensus on the government shutdown deepens a sense that the current leadership is ineffective. For all the talk of unity, the Party is profoundly divided on what message to convey to voters. “Some people argue that we should just—no matter what Donald Trump does or says—just always come back to the economy and prices,” Senator Chris Van Hollen, of Maryland, tells David Remnick. “And, of course, we should be very focussed on the economy and prices and rising health-care costs, as we have been. But to suggest that we should look the other way in the face of all these other outrages is, I think, a mistake, because I think the American people are tiring of Donald Trump. I think the polls indicate that.” Van Hollen is trying to pave a path between his party’s left and the establishment. He’s used the word “spineless” to describe colleagues in Congress who refused to endorse Zohran Mamdani in his mayoral campaign, but he has not called for Chuck Schumer to step down from leadership, as others have. Van Hollen wants “to be very much part of the debate as to where the Democratic Party goes.” Would that extend, Remnick wonders, to running for President? “My goal at this moment really is to stiffen the spine of the Democratic Party. But that means not just resistance to Trump. It also means taking on very powerful special interests that I think have had too much sway in both the Republican Party for sure, but also in the Democratic Party.” Remnick replies, “I’ve heard firmer nos in my time.”
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| 0:00.0 | You're listening to the political scene. |
| 0:07.0 | I'm David Remnick. |
| 0:08.3 | Early each week, we bring you a conversation from our episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour. |
| 0:16.0 | This is The New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. |
| 0:25.5 | Welcome to The New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Right now in Washington, both parties |
| 0:31.0 | are experiencing a crisis of leadership. Last week, when Donald Trump threw up his hands |
| 0:36.6 | and told Republicans to vote on |
| 0:38.3 | releasing the Epstein files, it was a humbling defeat for him, an admission that at least on |
| 0:44.1 | this one issue, he had lost control of MAGA. He tried to sideline Marjorie Taylor Green, |
| 0:50.8 | and so far, that hasn't worked either. The movement is just deeply conflicted over everything from the Epstein affair |
| 0:57.4 | to whether or not it's okay to be allies with the likes of Nick Fuentes, a white supremacist |
| 1:03.0 | and an anti-Semite. |
| 1:05.7 | At the same time, if the Democrats are going to mount any resistance at all to the Trump |
| 1:10.3 | administration, |
| 1:11.6 | they need unity, and that continues to escape them. Whatever you may have thought of the government |
| 1:17.1 | shutdown as a political strategy, the end of that shutdown, the defection of eight Democrats |
| 1:22.4 | who voted with Republicans, really deepened a sense that the leadership is flailing. |
| 1:32.3 | Calls for Chuck Schumer to step down as minority leader are now a commonplace. |
| 1:37.8 | I sat down recently to talk about all of that with Senator Chris Van Hollen of Maryland. |
| 1:43.8 | Then Holland began serving in the House in 2003, and he went to the Senate in 2017. |
| 1:49.4 | He's trying to steer a path between the left of the party and the party's establishment, |
| 1:55.1 | and he's used the word spineless to describe some of what he sees from his Democratic colleagues. |
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