I'm sure that there were layers above her that were also responsible.

That tone at the top is so important.

And so I would like to see other people one, two, or three jobs ahead of her that are also charged.

Because I don't believe she was the mastermind.

And I don't believe that we have found the mastermind behind the Wells Fargo scandal.

I'm Chris Hill, and that's Kelly Richmond Pope, a professor of forensic accounting at DePaul University.

She's also author of the brand new book, Full Me Once, Scams, Stories, and Secrets from the trillion dollar fraud industry.

Ricky Mulvey caught up with Pope to talk about takeaways from the Wells Fargo account scandal.

How to talk to older people in your family about potential scams.

AI's role in the future of fraud.

And what happens when college students try to cheat a forensic accounting professor?

What do you say I'm sure you interact with folks who say that that you know what I'm not going to get caught in a scam.

That's for, you know, that's for people who aren't as smart as me.

Well, ironically, I don't hear that a ton because I think so many people realize now that it can happen to them that they are, I think, more fearful and more,

more likely to want to know how to protect themselves.

Then to think I can outsmart somebody who is spending 24 hours a day trying to think about how to take money from me or how to impersonate me.

You know, it's there's somebody that's working to defraud us all the time.

So to think that you can outsmart that person is is a hard.

I don't meet a lot of people who think that her say that I hope they're not a lot of listeners who think that in your book.

You mentioned that the AARP estimates that people over the age of 65 lose about five billion dollars a year to fraud.

A lot of that goes unreported because when someone is victimized by a fraud, they feel ashamed.

They're embarrassed. They don't want to talk to anyone. What's your advice to someone who has an aging parent or grandparent and they want to have the talk with them about how to avoid frauds and scams?

...