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I'm John Bachelor. I welcome Veronique de Rijee of the Mercatus Center, George Mason University,

writing most recently a creator syndicate about industrial policy.

Veronique, a very good evening to you. My memory of industrial policy is that in the 20th century,

Japan tried industrial policy and was much admired for five or so years until it became obvious that Japan had wrecked its economy, maybe for a generation,

with Japan Incorporated. What is industrial policy that didn't work in Japan in the 20th century?

Good evening to you.

Good evening, John. So, I mean, Japan is one of the cases, but for instance, like,

Japan try to protect and protect some of its industry. It tried to actually also really boost

its export because governments and a lot of people tend to not

understand what is actually more powerful about trade is not export but import.

And in fact, that when you want to export a lot, you should import a lot.

It tried, it was very controlling about extending licensing for,

for companies to operate. It was controlling all sorts of things. I mean, there's a, there's a,

there's a famous example of the industrial policy where they denied what would

then become Sony, a license to operate in the name that they didn't think, the government

...