I'm John Bachelor. I welcome Jacob Howland. He is at the University of Austin at Texas. He is the

distinguished visiting professor in the School of Civic Leadership at the University of Texas

for this academic year. And we are discussing civic education. We begin, however, with a very well-known

educator, Thomas Jefferson,

who, according to Jacob's report, identified the three greatest human beings ever lived.

Bacon, Locke, and Newton.

An unusual list, but it was the 18th century.

Jacob, a very good evening to you.

What is it that Mr. Jefferson meant to convey with that list of that trio, and what did it result in American education to our understanding here in the 21st century?

Good evening to you.

Thank you.

And I appreciate you're having me on the show.

Look, Jefferson was shaped intellectually by the Enlightenment.

And personally, in terms of his disposition, you know he was an inventor.

He was very curious intellectually about all kinds of subjects.

And the three men that he exalted, Bacon, Locke and Newton in that order, by the way,

were modern Enlightenment thinkers.

Bacon and Newton, obviously, being scientists and Locke being very important for the American

founders in terms of his political thought.

Now, what that meant is that Jefferson thought that it was extremely important for the new

United States of America to pursue scientific inquiry and in particular applied science. And indeed, that has been one of the

sort of shining lights in American accomplishment is our capability to advance technology and

...