Rules for Civilian Hackers in War, with Tilman Rodenhäuser and Mauro Vignati

The Lawfare Podcast

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4.7 • 6.4K Ratings

🗓️ 24 October 2023

⏱️ 52 minutes

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Summary

Thanks to advances in digital technologies, it is now easier than ever for civilians to get involved in military cyber operations. From private civilian companies being involved in cyber defense to individuals engaging in offensive cyber operations against enemy targets, the increased participation of civilians in armed conflict is a risky trend.

Lawfare Fellow in Technology Policy and Law Eugenia Lostri sat down with two guests who recently authored an article outlining eight rules to guide the behavior of civilian hackers during war. Tilman Rodenhäuser is a legal advisor at the International Committee of the Red Cross, or ICRC. Mauro Vignati is a senior adviser on new digital technologies of warfare, also at the ICRC. They talked about what could happen if the principle of distinction is eroded and civilians lose their status, what limits governments should impose on civilian hackers conducting cyber operations in the context of an armed conflict, and the response so far from hacker groups and the cybersecurity community.

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Transcript

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0:00.0	The following podcast contains advertising.
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0:08.0	become a material supporter of Lawfair at Patreon.com slash Lawfair. That's Patreon.com
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0:30.0	States have turned a blind eye on this phenomenon and not over the last years done enough to ensure that also civilians, also private actors that participate in armed
0:46.9	conflict through digital means are way of the rules that apply and that states ensure
0:51.9	respect for these words.
0:54.0	I am Eugenia Lothre's fellow in technology policy and law, and this is the Lawfer
1:00.0	Podcast October 24, 2023.
1:04.0	Thanks to advances in digital technologies, it is now easier than ever for civilians to get
1:10.0	involved in military cyber operations. From private civilian companies being involved in
1:16.2	cyber defense to individuals engaging in offensive cyber operations against
1:21.3	enemy targets, the increased participation of civilians in armed
1:25.1	conflict is a risky trend. My two guests recently authored an article outlining eight rules to guide the behavior of civilian hackers during war.
1:36.0	Tillman Walden-Houser is a legal advisor at the International Committee of the Red Cross, or ICRC.
1:44.0	Mauda Vinieti is a senior advisor on new digital technologies of warfare, also at the ICRC.
1:52.0	We talked about what could happen if the principle of distinction is eroded and
1:56.6	civilians lose their status. What limits governments should impose on civilian hackers
2:02.3	conducting cyber operations in the context of an armed conflict,
2:06.0	and their response so far from hacker groups and the cyber security community.
2:11.0	Mowo and Tillman are speaking to us in their personal capacity. community. It's the Law for Podcast for October 24, Rules for Civilian Hackers in War, with Tillman Walden-Houser and Maure Vinayati.
2:30.0	So earlier this month you both published an article that articulated some rules for civilian hackers during war based on existing international humanitarian law.
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