Ronan Farrow on the Threat of Modern Spyware

The New Yorker Radio Hour

WNYC Studios and The New Yorker

News, David, Books, Arts, Storytelling, Wnyc, New, Remnick, News Commentary, Yorker, Politics

4.2 • 5.5K Ratings

🗓️ 22 April 2022

⏱️ 19 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

Ronan Farrow has published an investigation into a software called Pegasus and its maker, NSO Group. Pegasus is one of the most invasive spywares known; it allows users—including law-enforcement officials or government authorities—to hack into a target’s smartphone, gaining access to photos, messages, and the feeds from a camera or microphone. NSO markets Pegasus as a tool to catch terrorists and other violent criminals, but once a surveillance tool is on the market it can be very difficult to control. Farrow finds that Pegasus is being used to suppress political opposition in democratic nations, including Spain. The largest known cluster of Pegasus attacks has targeted people in Catalonia who support the independence movement, which the Spanish government views as a threat. “This is not just an information-gathering tool,” Farrow tells David Remnick; “It’s an intimidation tactic, and it works.”

Transcript

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0:00.0	This is The New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.
0:09.2	Welcome to The New Yorker Radio Hour, I'm David Remnick.
0:12.8	The software known as Pegasus is probably the most notorious spyware in the world.
0:18.4	It allows users, law enforcement officials, or government authorities to hack into a
0:22.6	target's smartphone, and that gains them access to photos, videos, and messages.
0:29.4	Pegasus can also remotely control a phone's microphone and camera, all without you're
0:34.4	knowing it.
0:36.2	The software is aimed at catching the worst of the worst, terrorists and other violent
0:40.2	criminals, but once a surveillance tool is on the market, it can be very difficult to
0:45.0	control.
0:47.5	Ronan Farrow has a new piece out on The New Yorker about Pegasus and the company that makes
0:52.5	it, an Israeli firm called NSO Group.
0:57.0	One of the things that I think is distinctive about this story against a backdrop of a
1:04.6	lot of good reporting from a lot of good outlets about this kind of spyware is I really got
1:11.2	to spend time inside NSO Group and their offices in Tel Aviv talking to their software
1:17.8	engineers who take evident pride in cracking encryption methods and opening up people's
1:24.8	phones and in the conversations that I had with the working level people at NSO and their
1:32.5	executives, what comes out is I think at times a sincere belief that this is a tool with
1:40.4	a lot of power to assist law enforcement.
1:43.6	A critics, particularly in the human rights world, I think would say that that's a dog
1:47.4	and pony show.
1:48.9	But I do emerge from reporting seeing evidence that there are law enforcement agencies around
	...

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