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In 2012, foreign policy expert Robert Kagan argued that contrary to popular belief then, the United States

was not in decline from its role as leader of the free world.

But when we sat down at the German Marshall Fund's Brussels Forum in March, Kagan's point of view had changed.

He said the nation's retreat from its international responsibilities under President Trump

is actually something the American people want. There's no way in the world that an American public that was concerned about America's role in the world could have voted for Donald Trump.

Here Kagan explained why this could mean the end of the world order America created after

World War II right now.

Bob Kagan, thanks very much for being on the podcast.

My pleasure, thank you.

So at the start of your speech at Brussels Forum, you said that you had just dropped off or handed in your

manuscript for your latest book to your editor, and the title of it is The Jungle Grows Back.

What does that mean?

What's the next book about?

Well, it's about the liberal world order that everybody has been talking about and my basic point

is that although at the end of the Cold War we sort of regarded the widespread of

democracy the prosperity the widespread of democracy, the

the lack of major wars between great powers

...