Replying To Zak George About Crossover Dog Trainers #300
Shaped by Dog with Susan Garrett
DogsThat
4.8 • 679 Ratings
🗓️ 26 March 2025
⏱️ 26 minutes
🧾️ Download transcript
Summary
Visit us at shapedbydog.com
Recently, dog training advocate Zak George asked me about crossover dog trainers, and framed the question in such a different way that it inspired replying with a podcast episode. When I crossed over from balanced training to reinforcement based training in 1996, many people asked me why and told me it would not work. I'm sharing my start in dog training, pivotal moments, people and dogs that led me to change my approach, what I learned about myself along the way, and the reasons I never went back.
In this episode, you’ll hear:
• About my transition to becoming a crossover dog trainer.
• The question from Zak George that inspired this episode.
• When I decided to leave balanced training behind.
• What I learned from my terrier puppy, Shelby.
• The book that changed my thinking - Don’t Shoot the Dog! by Karen Pryor.
• When I first saw true autonomy in dog training and how choice transformed my approach.
• About my "Shaping Badly" era.
• How learning from Bob and Marian Bailey helped me refine my training with clarity and intention.
• The shift to shaping with success.
• Why judgment holds trainers back.
• That change is possible.
• Reasons trainers resist crossing over to a positive reinforcement approach.
• A special offer for podcast listeners who want to be coached by me and my team.
Special Discounts to Join or Gift our Online Programs
Check out our 300TH Episode & 5th Anniversary Celebration Page - https://dogsthat.com/celebration-central/
Resources:
1. Zak George - https://www.youtube.com/@zakgeorge
2. Podcast Episode 146: Balanced Dog Training: Does It Really Exist? - https://dogsthat.com/podcast/146/
3. Book: Don’t Shoot The Dog! By Karen Pryor - https://shop.clickertraining.com/en-ca/products/dont-shoot-the-dog-karen-pryor?srsltid=AfmBOoqkL4DLKYAPB1xQMDtJGYDwa1AR0r-AdPOhXo5LFMYe2REoECS7&variant=33778264965258
4. Podcast Episode 34: Time Outs for Dogs: Does Your Dog Need One? - https://dogsthat.com/podcast/34/
5. Bob and Marian Bailey: Behavior by Bailey - http://www.behavior1.com/
6. Podcast Episode 245: Make Dog Training Easy! Quick Guide To Antecedent Arrangements - https://dogsthat.com/podcast/245/
7. Podcast Episode 71: Pro Dog Trainer’s Secret to Help Your Naughty Dog - https://dogsthat.com/podcast/71/
8. Podcast Episode 295: Fear Of Criticism? Why Facing The Camera Is The First Step To Becoming A Better Dog Trainer - https://dogsthat.com/podcast/295/
9. The American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior - https://avsab.org/
10. The International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants - https://iaabc.org/
11. Podcast Episode 297: Why In 2025 We Still Have Dog Trainers Who Believe “Reinforcement Dog Training Doesn’t Work” - https://dogsthat.com/podcast/297/
12. Podcast Episode 290: The Red Flag Of Dominance Based Training: Why It’s Hurting Your Dog And What To Do Instead - https://dogsthat.com/podcast/290/
13. DogsThat YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/@DogsThat
14. DogsThat YouTube Playlists - https://www.youtube.com/@DogsThat/playlists
15. Watch this Episode of Shaped by Dog on YouTube - https://youtu.be/rajGh9u8gkw
Transcript
Click on a timestamp to play from that location
| 0:00.0 | In July of 1996, I won the largest agility championship in North America at the time, |
| 0:07.9 | the USDAA National Championship. |
| 0:11.2 | I also that month was on a flyball team that set a world record in flyball, and I actually |
| 0:17.5 | owned and trained two of the four dogs on the team. And in addition, I competed |
| 0:23.7 | in the World Series of Dog obedience, earning the highest score of the day in the top utility class. |
| 0:30.8 | All of that in the month of July 1996. And just two months later, I did the unthinkable. I became what's known as a |
| 0:42.5 | crossover trader. Hi, I'm Susan Garrett. Welcome to Shape by Dog. And if you don't know what a crossover trainer is, |
| 0:59.7 | it's somebody who previously trained with physical punishment, verbal corrections, |
| 1:05.8 | intimidation, and aversives. Of course, they probably used a lot of reinforcement. I did. And they changed to |
| 1:13.5 | become force-free, reinforcement-based. Of course, in 1996, I did it really, really badly because |
| 1:20.5 | nobody was doing what I decided I wanted to try. And so with this being our 300th Shaped by Dog episode, I thought, |
| 1:32.3 | let's focus on getting more people to become crossover dog trainers. So I want to talk about |
| 1:39.5 | why people may be hesitant to become a crossover dog trainer. What was my motivation to become |
| 1:46.2 | a crossover dog trainer? I'm going to be completely honest. The motivation for me to do this |
| 1:51.3 | episode came from a comment left by none other than dog training advocate Zach George. |
| 1:57.0 | Zach wrote the following. As you've moved away from balanced training towards force-free methods, |
| 2:02.6 | was there a particular scientific discovery, ethical argument, |
| 2:06.1 | or perhaps even an awareness of how power dynamics or colonial thinking |
| 2:11.4 | shape our relationship with animals that led you to abandon aversives? |
| 2:16.7 | How might addressing these deeper cultural issues help trainers |
| 2:20.6 | still struggling to fully embrace modern approaches? That statement credited me with a lot of deep |
| 2:27.0 | thinking, which I don't think I did at the time. And honestly, when I reflect back on the changes |
... |
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