Welcome to the Creative Pen podcast. I'm Joanna Penn, thriller author and creative entrepreneur,

bringing you interviews, inspiration and information on writing, publishing options and marketing ideas for your book.

You can find the episode show notes, your free author blueprint and lots more information at

TheCreativepen.com. And that's Penn with a double N. And here's the show.

Hello, creatives. I'm Joanna Penn. And this is episode number 635 of the podcast, and it is Sunday the 17th of July 22 as I record this.

In today's show, I'm talking to Becky Robinson about her book, Reach, create the biggest audience

for your book, message or cause. And I really got on well with Becky as we agree about so much, so it's a lovely

conversation that I hope you will also find useful and reassuring in terms of your marketing.

Because the tools and technology might change, but the principles of marketing actually do

remain the same over time. And it was great to find that Becky and I agreed on so much when it

comes to marketing. So that's coming up in the interview section. So in publishing and book

marketing news and things, Ryan Holliday had an interesting article on his blog, and I know he is

a polarising character, but this was

about the things you think matter, don't, which definitely ties into part of what Becky and I talk

about today. So Ryan talks about hitting bestseller lists with books and how much we think

they should matter, but actually they don't for sales or impact.

Ryan says of the Wall Street Journalist,

this had absolutely no impact on the sales of the book or my ability to have a writing career.

What mattered was whether the book continued to sell well over time

and whether I continued to have interesting things to say.

It took Ryan more than a half dozen other books before he became a New York Times bestselling author and he says,

let me tell you nothing changed. He debuted on the list at number one and he says, nobody threw me a

...