I'm Josh Zeps, and I'm fascinated by people who express controversial ideas, who buck conventional

wisdom. Increasingly, we live in echo chambers that reinforce what we already believe and demonize what we

don't. So I hunt down the most interesting people in the world to help us all glimpse things outside our bubbles.

To prove we can still have constructive conversations about controversial topics that many people

claim are off limits. Join my substack list and follow me on Instagram and YouTube to never

miss a conversation that might expand your mind and change your life.

Today, we're in New York City, catching up with one of the world's most interesting thinkers

on racism, social justice, and being black in America and in Europe.

He's a New Yorker who lives in Paris, the son of a black father from the segregated south and a white mother from

the west, and he himself is the father of two very white-looking children. Straddling the USA and

Europe has given him a fascinating perspective that he is courageous enough to wrestle with

in public. From Charlie Ebdo to the Bata clan attacks,

from Islamism to racism, to racial profiling, to the American left and the European right,

he's one of the sharpest minds I know, and his must-read memoir is called self-portrait in black

and white. His name is Thomas Chatterton Williams, and this is

uncomfortable conversations. So my parents and friends are here, and then my kids are in Paris,

and I'm kind of... I'm home both places and not home anywhere. Right. Yes. Yes. The eternal foreigner kind of in all places.

But I like that. I like being a foreigner. I think that's actually been helpful for writing.

In what way? I was, I left in the second Obama term and I kind of was able to have a bit of a

distance from the Trump administration,

which I think kept me a little bit mentally sane. Yes. I was paying close attention to it,

but I was, I could just, I could get off the internet, go out into my neighborhood in Paris,

...