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This is John Bachelor.

Conversation with my colleague Katrina Vanenhovale, the editorial director and publisher of the

Nation magazine, about escalation in Ukraine.

The meeting between she and Putin understood as escalation.

Katrina points to NATO's side.

Macron's remarks these last weeks.

The word trainers when it comes to NATO might send trainers to Ukraine.

Katrina makes a good connection with advisors.

Here's Katrina Vaninova, escalation in in Ukraine underway in many directions, including on the NATO side.

More of this tonight.

You know, it seems that it's floating on its own track or moving quickly on its own track,

John.

I mean, we could have been writing and talking

about an escalation watch these last weeks.

But I go back to thinking about Macron,

for example, not the United States, France, but do you remember he was accused of at

...