This is John Bachelor. This is an excerpt from a long conversation with the historian and author James Holland.

His new book is The Savage Storm, The Battle for Italy, 1943. From the landing at Salerno in September,

to the battle right before the Monte Cassino assault

at the end of the year and the beginning of 1944.

The amazing revelations about the progress

of the Fifth Army on the Western shore

of the Italian Peninsula and the 8th Army on the eastern shore of the

Italian Peninsula is that the Allies were outnumbered by the German divisions. Rather than having 3 to 1, which is the accepted

way to make an assault, 3 to 1 advantage over your adversary, they were at a disadvantage all the time and the Germans

thought a retreating position through the mountain passes and over the rivers of Italy from the boot of Italy all the way to Rome. But this

savage storm that James Hollid publishes is a revelation of how well the allies fought when they were

outnumbered. In Normandy, they outnumber the Germans, but not here. And everything is for Normandy in the future. This is the predicate for it.

As James says, the Allies had too much to do nothing and not enough to do Italy. And yet

the savage storm and James explains why Salerno was a very poor choice

for a landing zone. D-Day in Salerno was early September, 1943.

Here's James Holland.

Oh, my goodness.

Was it ever?

Yeah, I mean, you know, Salerno is a nightmare.

So the idea is that where can you land? You have to have air cover.

So and you need decent air cover. It's no good having air cover for two minutes and then they've got to

bug back to Sicily or Malta or whatever. You know, you need them for a decent stretch of time.

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