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listening. Terms apply. This is John Batchel. Conversation with my colleague,

Anato Levin of the Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft, about a decision by

Russia to lower the threshold for the use of nuclear weapons. At the same time, some of that

lower threshold is said to be associated with Ukraine firing missiles into Russia. However, there are a lot of caveats here,

and Anatole sums it all up by saying that Russia so far has been restrained

in responding to the provocations of these last days.

But there are limits, and it has to do with NATO entering into the battlefield.

And it'll even on the very, very fragile battlefield in Ukraine.

More of this tonight.

You know, the West shouldn't take a restrained Russian response to this as a green light,

you know, for going much further.

For example, if the Ukrainian front were to collapse, the West sending NATO troops or aircraft

to fight for Ukraine, because, you know, there's been a lot

of talk in the West that, you know, that all Putin's red lines have proved, you know, a bluff

empty and therefore basically Russia won't do anything whatever NATO does to help Ukraine.

Well, you know, every Russian I have talked to has said, look, if, well, obviously, if NATO sends its own troops or aircraft to fight in Ukraine, that will be war.

...