This is John Batchel, conversation with James Holland, the historian James Holland.

The new book is Casino 44, The Battle for Rome.

Monte Cassino was the monastery above all the roads leading to Rome that the Allies must cross.

This is January to June, 1944.

The Battle for Rome itself, however, came to very much brutality by the Germans against the patriots who rose up against them. Two of my favorites

in the book, probably my two favorites, Alina and Paolo, part of the resistance taking absolutely overwhelming

chances, knowing they'd be executed within hours or days if they were caught, even suspected to be

part of the underground. And their success against the SS police who bullied and brutalized and murdered the Roman population.

Remember, Italy had been an ally of Germany until the invasion of southern Italy by the Allied forces,

and then Mussolini was driven from power, the king resumed power, and Italy switched sides.

Since that moment, in 43, the Germans had treated them as the enemy. Here James describes Alina

and Paolo and the success they have against the SS.

Much more of this in the coming weeks.

My conversation with James Holland ranges from the bitter winter of 44,

the attack on Monte Cassino, the landing in Anzio,

the battle with the 14th and 10th German armies under Kesselring,

the counterattacks, the overwhelming brutality of attacking the high points in winter, in snow,

with the Germans dug in above you, the massacre on both sides.

James Holland, here's Paolo and Elena.

How could Hollywood have missed these two?

Wonderful.

Much more of this in coming weeks.

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