This is John Batchelor. Conversation with my colleague Craig Unger, the author of a new book,

Den of Spies, Reagan, Carter, and the Secret History of the Treason that stole the White House.

This is October surprise, 1980. Craig has been in pursuit of this story for decades, and here it is, laid out for you to meet perhaps the first time or perhaps to review what you remember from the late 20th century.

Bill Casey, who died in 1986 of a cerebral hemorrhage, was the man at the center of the story of did or did not

the Republican campaign for the presidency, Ronald Reagan's campaign, deal with the Iranian

revolutionaries by making a deal over the hostages at that point, 52 hostages in Tehran at the embassy.

Did they make a deal or not make a deal? That was the debate in the 1980s, again

investigated by the Senate and the House of Representatives in 9192, and there's been a question of belief or non-belief for all those

decades since. Here's Craig Unger introducing us to Bill Casey. If it happened, Bill Casey did it.

If it didn't happen, Bill Casey is always going to be the man who is mysterious.

That's his nature. Very mysterious, very non-transparent. And as of this moment, there is no diary,

there is no confession, There is no confession.

There is no letter that can demonstrate that Bill Casey organized what is called the October surprise.

Here's Craig Unger introducing him.

Much more of this in the coming weeks.

My conversation with Craig was over two hours. Here's Craig Unger.

Casey's a very interesting choice as a campaign manager because he's not doing the things

that normal campaign managers do. Normally it's about raising money. And Casey did some of that.

But Casey was also, to me, one of the great American spies. And I characterized

him as sort of a mix between James Bond and Mr. Magoo. And he mumbled a lot. That was his nickname,

mumbles. The joke was, after he became head of the CIA, was that all the senior officials needed scramblers on their

phone, but not Bill Casey, because no one could understand what he said anyway. He sort of spat

...