let's just assume for a second that you want to do something good with your legal career,

like you want to help people. Then I think there are a couple of strands of the way that people

think about doing good legal work. One of the strands is, I'm going to be like a criminal

defense attorney, I'm going to help people on their individual cases, or I'm going to be like

a legal services attorney or an immigration attorney. I'm going to help people in their individual cases, do kind of direct service work, harm reduction in people's lives. I think that's really good.

There's another way of thinking about it that's like, I'm going to be Thurgood Marshall.

And what I'm going to do with the law is I'm going to like change the world and change the

legal system. And I think what I meant by what I said was I don't think that that's the way that social change happens. I don't think that's the way that social change happened with the social movements that we normally associate with big impact litigation, like the civil rights movement and like, for example, the gay marriage movement or gay rights movement. Both of those are often linked to certain legal cases, although I think it much

more clearly tracks on the ground organizing and building of social movements and non-legal power

and law occasionally was helpful and occasionally was restrictive. But I think it's sort of a mistake

to go in thinking that law is the vehicle for social change or a good vehicle for social change.